Jun 14

Web Standards, Where do we go from here? A few ideas…

2004 at 02.08 am posted by Veerle Pieters

I’m using and reading a lot about web standards for a while now, and it’s becoming clear to me that using these standards isn’t just something to be proud of to say “hey your site validates welcome to the club”, it’s so much more. But unfortunately you sometimes get the feeling that when you do you are part of an “elite” of web designers and that’s it. Just using it and telling others about it etc. is not enough. Thing is, if we only do this then I think next year and the year after that everything will still be the same, a small group of designers will use web standards but the majority will still create I.E. only websites etc. So my question is, where do we go from here?

This question did arise since I’ve read “The real reason you should care about web standards” on Design by Fire and also because Keith from Asterisk is no longer posting articles about Web standards. How do we go one step further and actually do something about it? First step I think that wouldn’t be a bad idea at all is give the W3C validator website and manual a totally different design and approach by web professionals such as Eric Meyer, Douglas Bowman etc. Good example of bundling knowledge and forces is a project set up by Andrei called “Design Eye for the Usability Guy”. Right now I think the site doesn’t set an example at all as it should in the first place. It’s simple and clear to me that the site lacks in many areas, the ugly interface for starters. Andrei mentioned the idea of creating a donation fund to make this possible, I personally think this is a very good idea and starting point.

Reshaping the W3C

This W3C should be a central point of everything about web standards, I mean everything. Think of the W3C as a garage where you drive your site into to give it a needed oil change. The alerts that you get now are hard to understand especially if you’re new to the game. It should contain all CSS tutorials that are out there, you should simply find your answer on everything instead of how it is now. You find one answer on this site, then another on another site etc. it’s all spread over the web and it’s a hassle to even start learning it. If everything is at a central place it would make life much more enjoyable. It should be the first thing you think of when a problem arises. Ok, I know this isn’t simple to set up but at least it would be a great asset and motivator if it was there. I would certainly contribute to make this work.

Reshaping the W3C is one thing but this still won’t change the fact that only a minority will use those standards. It would be a start at least. The real reason lays in the fact that Microsoft doesn’t care, MS doesn’t care for their actions, mistakes, just because they can. Take their security leaks for instance, it’s almost becoming a daily common thing, and the fact that it costs companies lots of money doesn’t change a thing about the situation. The only reason why they are moving resources from Longhorn to work on XP service Pack 2 is because of all the bad media exposure and pressure.

The EU

Take the EU process about Windows Media Player for instance, that is a joke! Every time I have to implement a movie in a website I use QuickTime, it’s just a better technology, you get nicer and lighter movies, is better scriptable etc. And every time I have to fight and defend this in a crazy way because the client’s argument is that most of the visitors will have Windows Media Player, every time it’s the same… Why bother, right? The EU can punish MS all they want but as long as there isn’t a mentality change at corporations nothing will work. We live in a democracy but it sure isn’t a democracy in the software world at all, it’s monopoly instead. The same thing goes for Internet Explorer. Maybe it is our task to inform the European Union or the US government in what kind of world we work in each day. I’m pretty sure nobody has any clue there since there our no web experts there (at least not to my knowledge).

Why not force software makers of web design software to create apps that support those standards in such a strict way that you are almost forced to use them? Would that be possible and could this do the trick? In this manner even people who don’t give a damn about web standards would still use them. I believe that only with some kind of pressure towards Microsoft that we could actually achieve some result. Without pressure things will remain the same, nothing will ever change. They also have bigger battle’s to fight first. See Robert Scoble‘s remark on that.

A blacklist?

And how about setting up a website black list? All websites that force you to use I.E. and don’t use web standards get on some sort of black list. All web standard weblogs could create link to this website (below their “Get FireFox” icon or Zeldman icon). If this gets a lot of exposure I’m sure most companies would want to get removed from that list. This is very drastic, I know. Most businesses don’t give a damn or haven’t even heard of web standards, that’s a fact. Something drastic is necessary to make a change I’m afraid, something that might affect Microsoft indirectly.

A quality label/certificate

Another idea could be that business web sites that use standards get some sort of quality certificate or quality label. Compare it with the ISO certificates, but then specifically for websites. This way we don’t only benefit from the fact that we guarantee to give our client a website build on web standards, but the client would also gain from it. After all, a product with a world wide quality label would be an extra selling point. If something like this could get a bit of “fame” or exposure I’m sure a client would consider choosing for this method. And if a lot of companies choose this method, big ones etc. then Microsoft would feel some pressure and they might consider doing something about it.

These are of course just my humble ideas and I have no clue if they are even realistic, but at least I’m concerned and I’m trying to think of something. Something like this can only get a chance in succeeding if a group of people (web standard gurus) set their minds to it, the rest will follow once there is a start and a movement in all this. A fund will also be needed to start it, changing something will cost a lots of energy and money.


30served

gravatar

1

permalink this comment Lukasz Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 06.00 am

Here are my two pennies about these standardish thingies.

What standards are for
Standards are for standards. That’s it. You may obey the rules, you may disregard them as well as they exist just for themselves. Following W3C rules allows you to slap a “Standard compliance” sticker on your website. Unless you incorporate some sophisticated code in your site it is pointless for in 95% cases your page will render smoothly and seamlessly. Why care then?

Let’s have an example from a real life. I am a system analyst and one of my duties is to collect users’ requirements regarding a IT systems. Usually these requirements are somewhat stupid, like “The system should be scalable” (it usually is), “The system should be reliable” (hey, don’t you see it is). In fact, very few requirements are measureable (reliability is one of them though it is hard to scale before the deployment. Whatever. Sometimes one may spot a requirement like “The UI should follow Microsoft standards regarding menus and the interface”. Yeah, there are MS rules about the UI which easily can be implemented into every application without any fuss. The point is that there’s nothing wrong in not implementing them i.e. when the client does not explicitely express his/her will to have them introduced. That’s why progammers usually don’t care about UI (except the fact it should be user friendly and so on).

Why keeping the W3C standards then? Why there’s so much preachment about them? If the client wishes to have a XHTML strict compliant page he/she states the explicitely and voila, he/she gets a nicely rendering site. But does it mean that without this particular requirement the page won’t render? I think not.

Blacklist and label ramblings
Bad ideas least to say. Blacklist especially as this could cause some legal problems, sueing and so on. But that’s not what I want to say: why you bother so much about that I.E.-must have thing? Face the facts: Windows is most commonly used OS all over the world thus IE is most commonly used browser all over the world and usually it is enough to follow IE rules as this browser have more than 95% coverage. Why would anyone care about the margin (FireFox, Mozilla, whatever) as IE covers 95% of the market? For me—the customer—the information is more important than the question the company follows the rules or not.

To you consideration: Microsoft browser does not support standards. Why it is so common then?


gravatar

2

permalink this comment lars Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 06.30 am

As long as customers keep using IE, companies will want IE compliant websites and don’t care about W3C standards because of extra costs. In turn webdesign agencies will develop IE only websites which are being built by non W3C compliant WUSIWUG editors.

For W3C standards to take off M$ will have to make IE W3C compliant and we all know that’s not going to happen any time soon. So the remaining IE users, 80% of surfers today, should switch to another browser like Firefox or Opera and thanks to IE exploits they are. In an awkward way M$ is yet helping to bring W3C to the masses.

How often have i heard IE is a standard since it has the largest coverage. Does the phrase “if it works don’t fix it” ring a bell? Which leaves little space for improvement, something M$ has become pretty good at.


gravatar

3

permalink this comment Lukasz Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 07.00 am

So the remaining IE users, 80% of surfers today, should switch to another browser like Firefox or Opera and thanks to IE exploits they are.

Yeah, and pigs fly.

Let’s skip the fact that it is not 80% but rather 95% or even more (can’t confirm it ATM but if you require sources I can provide you with on or two). Now why, I ask, shall I switch to browser other than fully integrated with UI of my OS Internet Explorer? It is not only troublesome but I can’t find any reason behind that - all sites I visit on daily basis do do render under IE! Why FireFox then? What is Opera good for? (heh, you don’t have talk me into FF since I am using it every day but here I am advocating for an average Windows user).

Does the phrase “if it works don’t fix it” ring a bell?

You’re not a progammer, are you? :-)


gravatar

4

permalink this comment Tim Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 07.09 am

Veerle,

I’ll stay on topic this time :p

I started a “blacklist” gallery of web sites that won’t let you in if you’re not using their approved browser here:
http://timandkathy.co.uk/browser_lockout/


gravatar

5

permalink this comment lars Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 08.41 am

Starting this morning i came across two websites which wouldn’t render because i wasn’t surfing with IE. So i changed my useragent string to Win IE and reloaded the website in order it to render anyway.

There are two points considering my brief encounters with IE only websites this morning. One, it’s a neverending story to keep a blacklist of IE only websites because there are so many and two, whomever read Zeldman’s book on web standards knows IE hasn’t got a 95% coverage because so many browsers fake the useragent string to bypass those IE only websites.

As a friend i encourage people to use Firefox and as a programmer i find it a must to support W3C standards.


gravatar

6

permalink this comment Rob van der Linde Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 09.14 am

A blacklist would be great, I am a firefox user myself obviously, and can’t stand sites coded only for IE. I usually create a new site for Firefox, using standards initially, and THEN make the effort to get it to work for IE. I use PHP level browser hacks, rather then CSS hacks, where I simply load a different stylesheet for IE, to all other browsers, which appears to be quite safe. I usually test my site on around 8 different browsers. I have had nothing but problems with IE however…

Claim: Let’s skip the fact that it is not 80% but rather 95%

Where did you get that info from??? check the stats!

Firefox usage is on the rise, check the stats yourself, I know not always to believe in stats, but I do believe it is on the rise. Firefox is a relief to users that have had nothing but problems with IE, regarding crashing, popups, etc. And many recent PC magazines are giving firefox good reviews - people are starting to realize… slowly.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Claim: Does the phrase “if it works don’t fix it” ring a bell?

You’re not a progammer, are you? :-)

-> Ok, if you make your site ONLY for IE, and do not follow webstandards, YOU are not a real programmer yourself, sorry, coding for IE only is a sign of lazyness…

Claim: Blacklist especially as this could cause some legal problems, sueing and so on.

-> Interesting, it can also go the other way, I read this on http://www.kapiti.net.nz/

* It has not been tested in courts in New Zealand, but non standards compliant web designs may breach the Human Rights Act

...So there you go!


gravatar

7

permalink this comment ByteWarrior Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 09.39 am

There is already a blacklist.  Take a look at PromoZilla.nl (it’s in Dutch).  They have already more than 300 blacklisted websites.  More than 50 of them are now working in Mozilla/Firefox.

I think such things as PromoZilla are goed initiatives.  It’s something to remind the company that there are also other browsers…


gravatar

8

permalink this comment Roger Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 11.20 am

There’s a site in Swedish called Webbplatskritik that contains “reviews” of websites from a technical point of view, with a focus on accessibility. Many of the reviewed sites are IE-only. Excellent reading (if you know Swedish ;) ).


gravatar

9

permalink this comment tinotino Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 11.54 am

Can’t fight a monopolist with standards for they set their own.

Release Safari for win. Make it come with iTunes like Quicktime. It’ll help.

ms is playing smart, but not being clever.
We’re a small axe vs a big tree

We need standards. if the inch wasn’t standard we still would be measuring with our feet. We only have to agree about what those standards are.

And yes, I’m sick and tired developing sites and having to debug them for every single browser available.
That’s idiotic and not productive.
Making a website should not be a struggle!


gravatar

10

permalink this comment Milan Negovan Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 11.59 am

First off, don’t pay attention to Scobble. He’s an idiot. As much as I am a Microsoft follower (plz pause before you flame me:)) I don’t get his role at all.

Second, applying pressure on Microsoft should go on. They *have to* bring IE up to par with Mozilla and Opera. There’s simply no other way around. I think we need a WASP-style push for IE upgrade. Anyone can come up with a caustic logo for IE upgrade? I’ll put it up on my site. 


gravatar

11

permalink this comment Adam Bramwell Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 12.15 pm

Some good points, especially the blacklist idea. I went and had a look at Tim and Kathy’s blacklist - it doesn’t seem to have links to the site’s error pages. Having thousands of hits to error pages would certainly get attention, so this should be taken advantage of and click-throughs made easier for standard-ists.


gravatar

12

permalink this comment Veerle Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 12.30 pm

What the blacklist is concerned, I saw it a bit more within the reshaping of the W3C, so they are actually maintaining that list and we “standard bloggers” are linking to that list. Every day or week it changes with another one in the spotlight. So if all standard weblogs bundle their forces it would give the W3C more power and impact I think. The feeling I’m getting now is that the W3C is more a sideline player. They are too neutral in my opinion.


gravatar

13

permalink this comment Rob van der Linde Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 09.42 pm

We need a global blacklist, good that I used to live in Holland, and can still read dutch. the dutch list is very interesting indeed.

But we have many bad IE only sites in NZ too, and likewise in other countries. Even the recent change they did to our natinal TV station website: TVNZ are bad

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/tvnz_index_skin/tvnz_index_group

It’s horrible, moves, and flickers while it loads, and looks crap compared to IE, the old version of this site was much better

It’s all written using horrible Java Servlets, but that’s not the point.

I am willing to help write the PHP/MySQL backend to make a global blacklist site (in my spare time) if necessary, I am a skilled PHP programmer (not designer :-), and am capable of writing quite a nice system, but cannot afford the server space, or domain names… maybe we should get a group of PHP programmers together, and someone to do a nice layout, and create one HUGE blacklist… copy all those existing 300 entries, and add global sites too… I cannot do it on my own, I do not have that much time, but a group of PHP programmers would be great, maybe make a Sourceforge project…


gravatar

14

permalink this comment Rob van der Linde Mon Jun 14, 2004 at 10.05 pm

Safari for PC, I have no idea what safari is like, but if you say it is good, I believe you :-)… Anything is gotta be better than IE. Anyway, on PC, we have Firefox, and we are quite happy with it. I had a look at Safari, and it looks good, however, if they do a port, I wish they dropped the metallic look… what might work on a MAC, doesn’t quite work on PC, that’s what makes firefox look better on the PC, it adapts with the Windows XP theme I select (I use a different theme to the original ofcourse), that’s why I also use Media Player Classic + QuickTime Alternative to playback .MOV’s, rather than the original Quicktime, not all PC users are keen on the metallic MAC QuickTime look, and is much slower on PC compared to Media Player Classic…


gravatar

15

permalink this comment Lukasz Tue Jun 15, 2004 at 01.39 am

Here are few statistics:

Russian speaking internet surfers
Foreign users measured by Polish company stats
Polish users

It seems that depends on who is making the statistics, no? :-)


gravatar

16

permalink this comment Richard@Home Tue Jun 15, 2004 at 02.31 am

A Name and Shame blacklist: a great idea. I’ve started mine over at http://richardathome.no-ip.com/index.php?catagory_id=45


gravatar

17

permalink this comment Dlen Tue Jun 15, 2004 at 08.03 am

W3C should be a central point of everything about web standards
- This is not the function of the organisation or the site. The W3 provides general specifications which can and should be used by everybody, including Microsoft. Learning how to read BNF can be very useful if you want to understand the specs and write standards compliant code. I understand this takes some time and effort, but should be doable for a pogrammer, not?

- Now if you look at the main CSS page, you can see they provide links to tutorials and new software products. 

give the W3C validator website and manual a totally different design and approach by web professionals

You’re right about the validator, but more important, they should write user-friendly error messages and add context specific hints and tips.
Everybody can submit propoals for these hint and tips so why don’t we start sending them some?


gravatar

18

permalink this comment Veerle Tue Jun 15, 2004 at 08.37 am

@Dlen, yes I know it’s not their function but don’t you think it “should” be? At least to make a movement or change in the situation? Right now it’s “passive” or how should I phrase it.

According to my humble opinion the W3C should do a lot more then providing just general specifications, they should also “promote” these specs more by means of a road show for example that travels around the country(-ies) to make the organization known to the general public instead of just the web-heads like us.

It’s just an idea of course.


gravatar

19

permalink this comment Veerle Tue Jun 15, 2004 at 08.51 am

The W3C could also represent a label that guarantees quality (of web standards), compare it with the safety labels you have on electric devices (the CE etc.), or the Energy Star label… everybody knows these labels, and everybody knows they stand for quality and they give you an assurance of what they stand for.

Take ISO for instance, companies pay money just to achieve this label. Such label would bring money to the W3C organization. It would be great if such thing could be achieved for websites. 


gravatar

20

permalink this comment David Tue Jun 15, 2004 at 04.16 pm

Hmm, well I this will be my first post here. I found this site a while back, and what caught my attention is I think the design is very sexy.

I have no clue on programming, and I’m heavy on graphics. When I started reading about web standards it cuaght my attention because of all the ruckus being raised. But what made me bust my noggin and study it is because of those who are using the net but are dealing with disabilities.

Crank open Photshop and I’ll hit the graphics hard, and when you’re working with gamers, they don’t care too much about sites being coded in standards, it’s the look they’re after.

I can do the look, and blogs seemed a bit flaky to me. I didn’t like that there weren’t too many graphics on the sites. So I thought, “Do standards make you give up graphics after spending all that time learning the skills in Photoshop?”

Maybe not, and using WySiWyG editors helped me out to do what needed to be done.

But after spending time touring web logs and seeing sites like this, I thought, “Wow, that’s nice, very clean and very sexy.”

I started liking that clean look, faster downloads, and keeping my options open to doing sites for others besides forum skins and gamers and so on.

I really wish there were some good web standard editors so I could “see” what I’m doing, really, that would encourage many of us who have an eye for design to follow standards. I’m all for standards, but when I get the layout done in Photoshop, export all of my images, and then have to take this huge long pause to code the thing, it hurts.

I want to see the finished product and make it happen, and stopping to check everything makes it very difficult and kills my enthusiasm. But I do think standards are necessary, I believe everyone should have full and equal access to the site.

The other night I thought, “I wonder if I can find someone who knows how to code fast, and I can do the graphics and we can go into business”. But I want to learn, and I’m paying the price.

I read all of the posts here and to be honest with you all, I have no clue what alot of the arguments are about, primarily because I don’t understand the techy language. I’m not a geek, but standards matter. In sum, it’s not only that people don’t want to use standards, but some people have a design skill so slick, they don’t want to be hindered having to slow down and code. These are my two cents...have at it!


gravatar

21

permalink this comment Veerle Fri Jun 18, 2004 at 05.27 am

@David, I can imagine that for a designer it isn’t very obvious to make the change. I’m a graphic designer myself but I’m one of those exceptions I guess who isn’t afraid to dig into the code. If your hair raises from the thought of this then it will be pointless to get even started. That’s why I also believe that WYSIWYG editors like DreamWeaver could help a hand here.

To be a good website designer, even if your concern is only the look and the UI, I believe that a basic knowledge of how the code will be generated is necessary to deliver a good job. My daily job is also mainly designing UI and delivering (X)HTML templates to an external developer. My focus is also the UI but still I want the site build on light standard code instead of heavy complex tables.

I learned most of this standard XHTML/CSS code by looking how others did it. I looked at their code and analyzed it, read some online tutorials etc. Since I’m a designer the design part is the easiest part for me, the code is the hard part. Since I’m designing websites since 1996 and since I started this by creating webpages entirely in the code, this is now a big advantage for me since I know the basics of the code, for a designer it is an asset to have both design and XHTML/CSS program skills this way. 


gravatar

22

permalink this comment David Sun Jun 20, 2004 at 11.11 pm

@Veerle: Thanks for the post in response to mine. It’s highly appreciated and I see that my thesis was pretty much restated. I am studying this more and more and getting the hang of it. A bit frustrating at first, but then again, most things are when they’re new.

Thank you again for the input.


gravatar

23

permalink this comment J. Young Sun Jun 27, 2004 at 09.49 am

Speaking of blacklists: I’ve been developing a new website in my spare time the past 6/7 months. It will make a lot of people mad, but it needs to be done. The whole purpose of the site is to expose websites and web software that does not comply with web standards. There will be a list of websites who are guilty of non-standard design, a list of faulty browsers, and the alternatives available. There will also be articles and other educational material for surfers and developers alike.

I am designing the site for Gecko based browsers( Mozilla/Firefox), and will be purposely NOT tweaking it to look good in any browser that ignores the standards. That, along with everything else, will hopefully wake a few people up.


gravatar

24

permalink this comment Michael Almond Mon Jun 28, 2004 at 10.30 pm

If you want change, learn how to create it!

The idea of a blacklist of sites that don’t use Web standards seems to me a rather extreme and ridiculous idea.

First of all, you are not targeting the right “enemy”.

If you think the problem is Microsoft, then come up with an effective strategy that identifies them as the such and moves them on this issue. This is a basic principle used in countless social change and advocacy campaigns (many of which are Corporate David vs. Goliath success stories).

They seem too powerful and strong to be influenced? Well, that is unfortunately the impression you created when you punish or ostracize those of us who are in the “trenches” and who rarely (ever?) have the time or latitude to make all the recommendations we would prefer to make to our clients. We also don’t always have the time to stay absolutely current with the every latest recommendations put out by the W3C on writing standards compliant code.

If you truly believe the problem is the Web designer, developer...

...who, for whatever reason, publishes a site that does not meet Web standards, then by all means go with your strategy of creating a blacklist and making them the “enemy”.

I suggest, however, that you also create a free service, staffed by a group of volunteers, preferable the same people who created this list, that will convert, tweak or completely rebuild every site on the list to meet Web standards (and I don’t mean free W3C “validation”, by the way).

That is actually a solution to the problem if what you want in the end are sites that comply with current Web standards, right? Does it seem rather ridiculous to those of you proposing the blacklist? Hmmm, interesting to look at the issue from a different perspective, isn’t it?

Believe it or not, I care about this issue and understand its importance. But what is also clear to me is that the elite members of the profession, who are in an enviable position of being more ready to change than others (and have rather extreme opinions usually) are experts on many issues related to our profession, but aren’t very knowledgeable when it comes to effectively creating change in those of us who aren’t quite as ready (the majority, by the way).

But why should they be, they have other things to think about (sound familiar)?


gravatar

25

permalink this comment Veerle Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 01.02 am

As I said this blacklist is a drastic way, and I’m also not sure of the idea actually. I don’t think it would change much. To be honest I just don’t know if there really is a solution to solve all this. I can only try to make it better and make it more popular, I started because I read a lot about it. There is a move but it is slow.

The label is something I could believe in. Only question is how? How do you set such thing up? Ideas are a start but fulfilling them are another thing.

As for fixing all those sites: I don’t see myself or any group of people just doing this for the sake of being compatible with all standard browsers that is just something that is SO impossible to do. It won’t help change things either. That idea is too unrealistic I’m afraid. Who would ever WANT to do this?? I have hardly time to post on my blog here and add some interesting info here for people to learn. I’m still learning myself. I’ll stick by doing my part, my thing where I’m good at, helping people to learn about it and learn to use it in an interesting way. 


gravatar

26

permalink this comment Michael Almond Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 03.58 am

Veerle, you actually got my point. Thank you.

I wasn’t seriously suggesting that this group fix every site they blacklist. It was purposefully “absurd” to help you see the other side of the issue and guess what? We arrived at the same place.

As I stated in my posting, few of us have the time or resources, let alone the influence, to make all the recommendations we want to our clients, even while knowing that the move toward standards compliant code is a good thing for our industry in the long run.

You also make another point that I agree with and stated in a slightly different way:

We are “knowable, skilled, experts...whatever” in our field; as Web professionals...and most of us have a particular focus or focus areas within the field. Just staying on top of the latest trends, innovations, technologies alone is overwhelming. As you said it perfectly when you stated “I am still learning and I will stick to what i know...”

The whole industry is still learning as well, while also attempting to establish a set of guidelines, standards, and rules at the same time.

I am currently working on an article that relates to your last point: We are not experts on how to effectively create strategies that influence and change public opinions and behaviors and thus create a desired action; in short, we don’t know how to run effective social marketing or advocacy campaign in order to “win” an issue.

Why? you stated it well; because we are not experts in this other vast profession.

But, that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t try to understand some of the basic principles of how successful strategic campaigns can bring about change through the possess of “moving” opinions. This is crucial in our own process of forming opinions, determining what is a preference or a real guideline, and also relevant to the bigger picture:

Your opinion matters too and the more knowledge you have on this these issues, the more powerful you can feel about how people are “moved” on an issue is crucial in the process of forming our own opinions, or practices, determining what is a preference or a real guideline, and also relevant to the bigger picture: A relatively new profession is attempting to establish a set of guidelines, standards, rules, whatever you want to call them, while at the same time still learning about this great new medium. 


gravatar

27

permalink this comment Dave Child Thu Jul 1, 2004 at 09.05 am

I think Opera’s technique is a good one - they encourage users to email a preset text to a site owner when a site fails to work in Opera. That text sets out the benefits for the site owner in making sure they’re site works in all browsers, and that the best way to do that is to stick to the standards.

To the person above who said standards were not necessary - has it crossed your mind that all programming languages have standards? Without them the entire internet would be badly fragmented, as various groups wrote pages specifically for various browsers - sometimes even doing several versions of each page, one for each browser around. Oh wait, we did that.

Standards allow us to design a page without worrying about how each individual browser handles it. In principle. Though it will of course be a while before that’s actually possible. Eventually, all browsers will render pages written to standards exactly the same way ... one day.


gravatar

28

permalink this comment Veerle Fri Jul 2, 2004 at 03.26 am

@Dave: Sounds like a good idea. I personally didn’t know that Opera had such a feature. Some people will never get it that Web Standards are important. The lesson to learn here is to not give up and try to do our bit in bringing the message across. Personally I can’t wait for the day that all browsers render pages written to standards exactly the same way. That would make our job so much easier.


gravatar

29

permalink this comment Chris Beach Mon Jul 12, 2004 at 05.00 pm

Your comments on blacklisting don’t even bear thinking about. What a crazy and very desperate caper. As for the W3C, well, it is looking old and tired (and not just its website). To me the only thing it has acheived is to open the floodgates for new browsers to be developed which can claim to be ‘standards compliant,’ although they have bespoke rendering engines and inevitable differences. 90% of my site visitors use Internet Explorer. The advent of Mozilla, Opera and the like simply make my role as a web developer harder as I have to deal with each browser’s quirks. I would love to see Microsoft set the defacto standards for the web.

MS has acheived the incredible - they opened the desktop market to the masses. As a web developer you owe them a lot. They have brought your visitors.. and your customers. Without Windows (and it’s billions of dollars worth of UI research), PC’s would still be the domain of the geek. Microsoft (like many large corporates) have been ruthless, but this is just the reality of real-world business.

Granted, IE hasn’t been re-released in a long time but as a mark of it’s stature, it’s still the leader of the pack. With the addition of the excellent Google toolbar it sports a pop-up blocker, form auto-filler and best of all - ingenius integration with the Google search engine. Google have not bothered creating various different versions of the toolbar for the rest of the browser rabble, and good on them!

There are those who hold up “tabbed browsing” as the be-all-and-end-all of the browser experience. Well, you might like to experiment with docking the start-bar to the side of your screen (you can then see all the titles of your open IE windows). Since IE is well cached by Windows, new browser instances open in a jiffy. You can even have several browsers open on one desktop in any layout. Opera/Mozilla’s tabbed browsing doesn’t add much more than that. And yes, the “gestures” plugin for Mozilla is cool but at the end of the day it’s just a gimmick. Most Microsoft mice feature additional buttons which work much more elegantly.


gravatar

30

permalink this comment Chris Beach Mon Jul 12, 2004 at 05.01 pm

At the dawn of personal computing there were rival platforms, and it took a while to establish the defacto standard (the x86 architecture). It was only then that PC’s started appearing in the consumer market. I don’t believe any buerocratic bodies were required to supervise this progression. It happened because of cold, hard business competition. Although many rival platforms fell by the wayside in the process, the end result was a huge positive step for computer science in general. Intel created the x86 and once the standard was set, the doors were opened for healthy competition from the x86 clone market. Imagine the design headaches that would be resolved if we had one standard for HTML/CSS/Javascript. Microsoft present a very strong proposition. At the end of the day, W3C is just a glorified discussion board. Why should MS feel they have any responsibility to this organisation?

With IE, Microsoft have created (and assimilated) a well-thought-out and very powerful javascript DOM that, for example, supports element iteration much more flexibly than the W3C model. They have also created a rich set of CSS filter pseudo-classes which are light years ahead of CSS2. And we’re talking about a model that MS designed several years ago. If CSS3 ever gets decided on by whichever buerocratic committee, it will be taking its lead from Microsoft’s innovation.

When the next iteration of IE is released I’m hoping it will include support for PNGs with an alpha channel. This is the only feature of any importance that the rival browsers are starting to pick up. Once this is in the bag IE has won.

Goodbye, W3C. Hello, standards!



Commenting is not available in this weblog entry.

Flickrness

buy something from my Amazon wishlist