Dec 07
Inside is out with my article in it
2005 at 12.11 pm posted by Veerle Pieters
Two short things on this Wednesday: Number 1: Inside is out with my article about using web standards in it. Fingers crossed that some more people will get the benefits of using web standards by reading it.
Btw, my friend Roger has nice piece out that fits perfectly while we are on the subject called “Ten reasons to learn and use web standards“.
Number 2: Oh my! A Belgian (Flemish) guy called Ken Reist from Steenokkerzeel has hit the jackpot by downloading the 100 millionth song in the iTunes Music Store on Tuesday December 6th at 6.22 PM. He downloaded “Die Zauberflöte” from Mozart. His price consists of a 17 inch iMac G5, a 30 GB iPod, 10.000 free iTMS-numbers en two tickets for a concert of Robbie Williams. What a cool present on Sint Nicholas day! I’m jealous ;-)
37served
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We’re awaiting your publication debute here in the US!!! I guess your blog will have to satisfy us for now. :-)
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good luck.
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yes! would love to see an english version should yr publishers allow you to distribute a pdf version…
and i note yr post today is sprinkled with a few belgian words ;-)
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Great. Sometimes you need to think outside “the web”. A magazine is probably the next best place to get the word out :)
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What a great surprise on this children’s holiday ! I’ll bet it made him feel like a kid again ;-)
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That Ken lives in the same site as me!! To bad I don’t know him, maybe he could donate me 1.000 of those iTMS credits ;-)
Hey Veerle, do you happen to know how I can get my hand on a copy of that magazine? Because I’ve got no idea where to get it!
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Offcourse “site” had to be “city”... Stupid me!
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Congrats!
I also hope there is an english translation to that article because my Dutch really sucks (ie. i can understand zero words) :-)
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Like Tim i’d like to know too where to get it ... i think i’ll try http://www.imstijdschriften.be ... they got a shop in Hasselt where i work.
Looking forward to read your article Veerle
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I just checked IMS’ site, they have Inside as stock article ... i think i’ll drop by to make a reservation for the next issue :)
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@Tim, Chris R. I have a yearly subscription, but I thought you could buy this magazine in almost any press shop. Thought I’ve even seen it in our local Delhaize shop.
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I love your blog! Awesome design =D
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Just putting the dots on the “i” (hmm, is that english? ;-) )...
Anyway… it is 100 millionth download of the Europe ITMS site, Veerle. The global ITMS site already reaches more than half a billion downloads…
It is indeed a great price… I wonder what one will do with 10.000 songs. It took me years to have 5000 songs in my iTunes, but I would not be able to make a wishlist of such proportions in a short time. :-)
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This morning I went out to get the December issue of Inside. I understand how much effort you’ve put in the article, but I’m not really convinced. The message is cluttered, it seems like your text hasn’t been edited (typos, grammatical errors, inconsistencies) and it’s not written with the audience of Inside in mind. It’s an article written *by* a webdesigner *for* webdesigners. There are numerous articles wandering about on the web (yes, in Dutch too) that bring the message of web standards (not “webstandards” btw) in a more convincing way. And without that patronizing overtone that, I’m afraid, many readers will dislike.
First of all, the introduction is misleading and sounds too artificial for my likings.
“Imagine a world where tables <table></table> and its brothers would be unexistent in the source code of websites (...).“
That hurts. You’re confirming the most widespread misconception about web standards in the first sentence already. Tables should only be used when appropriate: to markup tabular data. That�s the whole idea behind structural markup - and of course you know that. There’s no need to talk about HTML tags here yet, Veerle. Not in the introduction.
There are other things that bother me even more. You’re mixing up web standards and web accessibility. Again. Those two concepts are not interchangeable and a website that validates and uses structural markup is not per definition accessible (which you’re stating). Respecting web standards is the best foundation for an accessible website (for any website, actually), but it’s *only* a starting point. There’s a reason why the W3C develops separate guidelines (WCAG) that explain the concepts of accessible websites. Feel the desire to talk about disabled users and text browsers? Then you should mention these guidelines too. I’m not going into detail about this. Been there before.
You’re also talking about the importance of structure. Then why is the article itself not structured at all? Ehm, where are the headings? Halfway the text, there’s one heading ‘Flexibiliteit alom’, but you’re talking about a lot of other concepts in the article.
I also wonder why you’re sometimes talking about ‘navigators’ when you mean browsers. I’m afraid this confuses a lot of readers. “Is she talking about Nescape here?“.
And why this patronizing tone, Veerle? It sounds as if you look down on all your fellow webdesigners by saying:
“Helaas blijven webontwikkelaars websites uit de grond stampen vol met nietszeggende codering en overdreven geneste tabellen die nu net usability problemen geven”.
Besides, since when do nested tables affect usability? Daar beginnen mijn tenen een beetje van te krullen.
Well, at least you’ve tried. I hope you’re attracting extra clients with this article (the 7 links to ‘Own references’ wil probably give you a hand).
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Veerle, congratulations on your published article, and I hope to see it at some point - although unless it’s translated, I won’t understand it! :)
I do want to address Roel Van Gils’ comments for a number of reasons. First, Van Gils does have some very strong points, but I have to comment on this both as a leader within the standards movement and a woman: The patronizing tone of his comment is really not helpful to anyone.
Van Gils states that Veerle’s tone is patronizing (can a woman be patronizing?) but clearly, his is. While I can totally understand the desire for better accuracy and correcting certain misperceptions in standards, what is not acceptable is to pull someone down as they make their way.
Veerle is one of the very few International women putting herself into the public eye for the cause of standards and great design. From one who knows, that’s a very difficult thing to do. So she needs support. If criticism is to be involved, criticize the message, not the messenger.
I’ve been working and writing about the Web publically since 1993. Even now I can’t honestly claim I understand every nuance of what we do.
But each time I put something out there, it’s the contructive, helpful criticism and respectfully delivered feedback that enables me to do a better and better job over time.
I cannot imagine that I’d have made it to the W3C as an invited expert, or to the role of Group Lead for the Web Standards Project (WaSP) had it not been for the constant, ongoing support I have - even when I make errors. That’s how we learn, after all, and I feel we owe it to each other as professionals learning our craft at a very early time in the web’s history to be as supportive and helpful as we can.
To the points of concern. It is true that table elements are not the main problem - provided the author understands how to properly mark them up. This is true for data tables as well as any tables that might be used for layout. Yes, it’s possible to linearize content in a table-based layout, so it’s not that tables themselves for layout or other purposes are inherently evil. It’s what people or products do with them that make them problematic: Presentational markup, deeply nested tables, overuse of table markup (such as a multiple rows to mimic a list when a list would do) to get a given result - that’s the problem. Even with data tables, if the author or authoring tool isn’t providing proper semantic markup, the table is potentially inaccessible.
Another strong message is that we truly have to be careful when assuming that web standards is the equivalent of accessibility, for of course they are not equivalent. However, using web standards accordingly can bring us a lot closer, and using them is in fact how we form the best platform for accessible sites - in all ways.
So those are important points and do need to be clarified, but let’s think about ways we could do that with a bit of consideration for the authors - particularly ones with such heart and passion as Veerle has for the topic.
- Comment with respect on this site and perhaps your own and continue the discussion. This allows everyone to learn more
- Write a respectful reader mail to the publication clarifying points and offering some resources where people can go and learn more
- If you have nothing good to say, do what my mother advises: say nothing at all (not that I always listen to her)
To put your thoughts, your face, your self, your weaknesses as well as your strengths in front of the public takes courage, and I applaud Veerle for being one of the very few women at all, much less outside of the United States, for being so courageous. By helping her achieve her goals, we all help each other in the process.
Molly E. Holzschlag
Group Lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP)
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@Roel (my comment is so long I have to do it in several parts). First the readers of Inside are web professionals so I think it’s pointed at the right target. It’s about time that other people like for example decision makers realize that most of the sites that look the same are not built to the best guidelines that the W3C is promoting. Most of them are like a second hand car, nice at the outside but don’t look under the hood. I also don’t need to convince you, because you are too narrow minded an too focused on your organization only. My vision is that the web is for everybody and not just for blind people and in my understanding web standards is the ONLY right way. And yes, there are many articles on the web but this is a first in a magazine like Inside.
Your remark about the typos, grammatical errors, inconsistencies is just a shot below the belt and it doesn’t suit you very well. I guess when you have nothing else it’s kinda last straw. Maybe you should check your own presentations a little bit better next time since you are guilty of the same in this PDF presentation (one of my readers did send me this). You also are using “webstandards” (webstandaarden) on page 8 and 9. You’ve kinda asked for it here and I want people to know what kind of person you really are. I didn’t start this remember!
First of all, the introduction is misleading and sounds too artificial for my likings.
“Imagine a world where tables <table>…</table> and its brothers would be unexistent in the source code of websites (...).“
First that’s something that I didn’t write myself, the editors of Inside added this (title, intro etc.), my article starts at “Om uit te leggen…“ I’m sure Inside knows when they’ve put this there that it is about using tables for layout and that tables are ok for tabular data.
That hurts. You’re confirming the most widespread misconception about web standards in the first sentence already. Tables should only be used when appropriate: to markup tabular data. That’s the whole idea behind structural markup - and of course you know that. There’s no need to talk about HTML tags here yet, Veerle. Not in the introduction.
Like I said above that’s what Inside has put there. It is also your interpretation of this.
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There are other things that bother me even more. You’re mixing up web standards and web accessibility. Again. Those two concepts are not interchangeable and a website that validates and uses structural markup is not per definition accessible (which you’re stating). Respecting web standards is the best foundation for an accessible website (for any website, actually), but it’s *only* a starting point. There’s a reason why the W3C develops separate guidelines (WCAG) that explain the concepts of accessible websites. Feel the desire to talk about disabled users and text browsers? Then you should mention these guidelines too. I’m not going into detail about this. Been there before.
Web standards and web accessibility go hand in hand and are the first building blocks to an accessible site. It’s not that I had the ultimate space to write about every detail. You are talking about a small piece in a large article and I couldn’t go into detail on everything, sending people the global idea is what’s all about.
Respecting web standards is the best foundation for an accessible website (for any website, actually), but it’s *only* a starting point.
Maybe you should read your own words a little better next time you put a Blindsurfer label on a tag soup site. You said it yourself when you only would give out labels to good coded sites you wouldn’t have any income remember? So promoting Web Standards is actually not really in your best interest. Yes I know you mention that particular info in the report to the client, but it’s too late then, the damage has been done and people don’t really look at this and have no interest anymore, they have the label and that’s it.
You’re also talking about the importance of structure. Then why is the article itself not structured at all? Ehm, where are the headings? Halfway the text, there’s one heading ‘Flexibiliteit alom’, but you’re talking about a lot of other concepts in the article.
In the Word file that I have sent I’ve used headings etc. but they didn’t include them. But I can’t shake the feeling that you are nitpicking here. It’s like you try to grab every little opportunity to find something negative. To me this is rather childish sorry.
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I also wonder why you’re sometimes talking about ‘navigators’ when you mean browsers. I’m afraid this confuses a lot of readers. “Is she talking about Nescape here?“.
I’ve used browsers in my article but Inside changed it to navigators. The editor must have thought that navigators is a better word to use instead of browsers.
And why this patronizing tone, Veerle? It sounds as if you look down on all your fellow webdesigners by saying: “Helaas blijven webontwikkelaars websites uit de grond stampen vol met nietszeggende codering en overdreven geneste tabellen die nu net usability problemen geven”
Well the ‘patronizing tone’ is sometimes necessary because the true fact is that most fellow webdesigners are not wordy to call themselves web professionals. Sometimes you need to take the gloves off to get noticed.
Besides, since when do nested tables affect usability? Daar beginnen mijn tenen een beetje van te krullen.
Are you kidding me? It’s all over the web that nested tables are bad for usability, it’s even in the WASP mission statement from 1998. Nested tables further complicate how tables linearize. Also Joe Clark, which is my opinion a real accessibility specialist, has this to say about nested tables.
“On the surface, nested tables do not pose an accessibility barrier. Screen readers and other adaptive technology can wade through the cells in a kind of brute-force way. But if you’re the human being at the controls of such a device, how do you figure out exactly where you are? A sighted visitor never has this problem: You can just glance around the screen. We use layout tables for their effects, not their structure, and to sighted people, the structure is quite invisible. (That is, unless for some strange reason you have set border to a value other than zero, in which case the skeletal grid structure comes to life. But not everyone using the Web can see.“
Last time I checked Joe is a guy who knows his stuff and travels the world to talk about it. Can you say the same? Sorry but I think Joe has a little more credit then you.
Well, at least you’ve tried. I hope you’re attracting extra clients with this article (the 7 links to ‘Own references’ wil probably give you a hand).
My god you sound full of yourself here! Yes I’ve tried and for the record I didn’t write this article to get more clients but I truly am passionate and convinced that using web standards is the SMART way of doing things. If I would be in this game for making money then I must be a fool by sharing my knowledge and let others in on my secrets.
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@Molly, thanks so much for your kind words. I’m glad you have clarified things. Your professional insight on the matter is of great value and is very much appreciated.
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I think you’re taking this too personal, Veerle. There’s no need to offend me in such a personal and crude way. I suggest that you stick to the point.
I’m not critizing you as a person; it’s really only the shortcomings of the article that bother me: I truly was disappointed when I read it. It also felt as if the entire discussion we had last summer, was completely useless.
I admire your work as a web designer and even more as one of the few standards advocates in Belgium. You know that. And we share the same goal. I’m just very disappointed now…
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Roel, I’m speaking to you with a lot of experience in this sort of thing. I’ve been working with Open Source projects for the past five years now and user criticism is the name of the game in that world. But I’ve rarely had the opportunity to read comments so despicably beside the point as yours. It get’s even worse when one reads your last comment. Your personal attacks, the comments on punctuation and capitalisation, they all underline the fact that you see yourself as the only man in Belgium apparently who knows and therefore can comment on Web Standards. You’ve shown what kind of person you are, and any real comments you may have had on the article are now void for me. For when you want change and discussion, one first needs to show the other side respect and clearly you don’t know how to do that.
I’m fully aware that my comments on your behaviour here will not have any influence what so ever on you. But I hope that they are some support for Veerle to try and change the general thinking in Europe on how websites should be structured, one step at a time. As all change comes in the world…
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@Veerle, I would love to read the article, but my Dutch is not at that level ;-). Knowing you I’m sure it is a good one though.
@Roel, I don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish by posting such disrespectful and patronising comments. Getting all the facts into a printed article can be difficult, especially when you’re relying on the magazine’s editors to get everything right. The article author does not always have full control of every word in the final article.
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@Roel, next time you have some criticism leave out the remarks about the typos etc. and patronizing tone towards me. I never attack people personally unless I have no choice when being attacked myself. When you say those things about typos etc. then it IS personally since I have written it. Not that I really care, I’m already used to this and frankly I don’t give a damn, the message is what’s counts. You give people the impression that who ever wrote the article doesn’t know what he/she is talking about, which is a personal attack to me. So as I’ve said you’ve made it personal, not me. Maybe in the future you will think twice before posting something like this. If we share the same goal as you say, then why are you rewarding all those sites that use crappy (invalid) code? In my opinion that’s being contra-productive. And also I don’t think my article has any shortcomings. The article is to get the message across that using web standards have benefits and is the right way to build a professional website. The part you’re referring to consist of 1 paragraph. The only mistake was not mentioning the WCAG, but I only had so many characters to use and the main focus on this article are the advantages of web standards in general.
@Tim thanks for your support, it means a lot to me :-)
@Roger, thanks my friend ;-) I think once I have the opportunity I’ll translate the article in English. Unfortunately time is a problem to do so.
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I read the article at work and I must admit Roel has made some strong points, but I don’t think Veerle is to blame here. Of what I understand by reading veerl’s comments, I believe it’s manily the editors that did a bad job. I felt a tad disappointed too.
It was not very wise of roel to put it in such a untactful way. On the other hand: veerle’s reaction was maybe a bit too harsh. I think everybody has to learn how to deal with criticism in his/her job…
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@Arnaud: I read the article too and don’t get it how you can be disappointed if the article sends a positive message about web standards. Veerle sums up quite nicely why you should care and that alone is major when a magazine like Inside decides to print it. If you can’t see that then there must be something wrong with your thinking I’m affraid. Besides saying that you are disappointed is easy but whitout explaining why is a lot harder so it seems. Remember this wasn’t a technical article that highlighted every tiny detail but just a get to know web standards kind of thing. And I also don’t mean the bullocks that Roel van Gils is saying that isn’t positive critizism at all. To me that sounds like the knee jerk reaction from a jealous guy sorry. I wouldn’t like it too if somebody talked to me in such a way and I think Veerle her response was more then appropriate.
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Read the article. Good work Veerle.
Don’t forget “thris is Belgam peoples” (Krullen je tenen al Roel? Sorry mate, just being a tease. ;-)
Web Standards are sadly still in kid’s shoes over here. And as I understand it, it’s Veerle’s first published article in a pro-magazine, so ... Did you really expect her to hit the ground running?
I for one think it’s a excellent starting point. It addresses the issue, makes people think about it, consider it, research it ... and do it!
Is that not the main objective here?
Ya’ll stop bickering to be “top-dog” on Web Standards ... and just do your job right: with passion and pride!
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Hi,
A colleague (well, or a competitor, it depends) is long-time web designer and, believe it or not, he has been conviced to use web standards by reading your article in inside… so… Great job!
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Hey Roel, I just found a pdf-file made by you and guess what: I found a typo!!!
“Nieuw naam (!)“
Well, Isn’t that lovely, you even put an exclamation mark behind it so everyone would see it :-)
Stopped by the delhaize yesterdag, but they only had the french version of Inside…
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@Veerle
Roel, next time you have some criticism leave out the remarks about the typos etc. and patronizing tone towards me. I never attack people personally unless I have no choice when being attacked myself.
I apologize. I’ve reread what I wrote and I recognize that I expressed my criticism in an uncivil and offending manner.
You give people the impression that who ever wrote the article doesn’t know what he/she is talking about, which is a personal attack to me.
If there’s someone who had to write this article, it’s you. Seriously. It’s just that I imagined the result to be differently. I worried that the things I mentioned in my initial comments could probably put off or confuse the audience that Inside is targeted at (managers, decision makers). I didn’t want to imply that you don’t know what you’re talking about. if that’s the way I feel about you, I would not be a loyal reader of this blog.
Maybe in the future you will think twice before posting something like this.
You bet I will.
If we share the same goal as you say, then why are you rewarding all those sites that use crappy (invalid) code?
That’s because I learned by experience that crappy or invalid code does not necessarily affect accessibility for the visually impaired (the audience BlindSurfer currently works for). I remember that I once invited you to our office to demonstrate how blind and bad sighted people surf the web by means of assistive technology such as a screen reader (as a reponse to your public statement that our organization lacks knowledgeability). That invitation is still open.
To be continued
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Maybe you should read your own words a little better next time you put a Blindsurfer label on a tag soup site. You said it yourself when you only would give out labels to good coded sites you wouldn’t have any income remember?
I’m afraid you got that wrong. The reason why the use of web standards/valid code is currently not a requirement to qualify for the label is definitely not related to my income or the profits of our organization. Clients pay for the audit, not for the label. We put a lot of care in these audits and our biggest trump is probably that we work closely with real disabled users. And for the record: BLL and ONA (the Flemish/Walloon non-profit organizations that have established the project) don’t earn a single cent with this. The only goal of the project is to make websites more accessible to disabled people and to raise the awareness of web accessibility. And we’ve got a long way to go.
And also I don’t think my article has any shortcomings.
From what I understand from your reply, I seems that most flaws I wanted to point out have been inserted by the editors at Inside. Considering your proven knowledgeability, I should blame myself for not taking this into account when I started to comment.
I also don’t need to convince you, because you are too narrow minded an too focused on your organization only.
I don’t think I’m narrow minded. Before you judge about that, you should get to know me first.
Maybe you should check your own presentations a little bit better next time since you are guilty of the same in this PDF presentation (one of my readers did send me this). You also are using “webstandards” (webstandaarden) on page 8 and 9.
Actually, it’s ‘web standards’ and ‘webstandaarden’, but I admit that I’ve been too fussy on that. It’s a bad habit.
Also Joe Clark, which is my opinion a real accessibility specialist, has this to say about nested tables (...) Last time I checked Joe is a guy who knows his stuff and travels the world to talk about it. Can you say the same?
I wouldn’t even dare to compare my knowledge to that of Joe Clark (whom I admire). In addition, I refuse to call myself a ‘specialist’ on any subject. I live to learn.
To be continued
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My god you sound full of yourself here! Yes I’ve tried and for the record I didn’t write this article to get more clients (...)
When I said ‘at least you’ve tried’, I did not necessarily mean that in a nasty way. I clearly mentioned that I appreciate your effort and I even suggested some advantages of using web standards back in September when you announced you got the change to write this article and asked for hints.
I’m happy to read in Pilok’s comment that your article convinced one of his colleagues to make the switch to web standards. I think that makes it all worthwhile.
@Tim:
Your personal attacks, the comments on punctuation and capitalisation (...)
I can’t remember that I mentioned anything about ‘punctuation’ or ‘capitalisation’...
Hey Roel, I just found a pdf-file made by you and guess what: I found a typo!!!
Okay, thanks :$ I really shouldn’t have mentioned the typos!!!
And lastly, @Molly: your comment got me thinking about what I said and how I put it. I will certainly remember your valuable words.
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@Roel: Glad to hear my comments helped.
@Veerle: I think taking Roel up on his invitation to visit his offices would make great material for an upcoming article from you!
See, we all learn from each other. The Web is here for people and we can’t forget that. Tim Berners Lee himself has written that the Web’s “first goal was to work together better.“
I think that pretty much sums it up :)
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@Roel, I’m certainly not a rancurous person, so apology accepted of course. And about the invitation, I’d like to take you up on that offer, but it will be at some later date since my schedule is too overloaded at the moment. It’s getting harder and harder to make time for my blog to post some decent article these days.
@Molly, you are right… oh well, you are always right! ;-) I’ve added this article idea to my todo list, which is getting ridiculously long now. God I need a break :-)
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My god, as the chief editor of inside, I didn’t think that a simple article in my magazine could cause such heathed discussion here. So, ladies and gentlemen, in a few words, what are your biggest problems with this paper ?
O
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@all
I think the problem is about the article itself. As Inside is, in my opinioin, one the most influent magazine in Belgium for Internet sepcialists and as there are so few web specialists in our country that are convinced about the interest of creating usuable and standard compliants website (god, what a long sentence), some people were maybe expecting a perfect demonstration of the power of web standards that would convince everyone to endorce the best web practices.
In fact, I believe this article was only a beginning and when you say to someone “look, nearly everything you know about webdesign is wrong”, you should say it carefully… ;-)
So, even, if it is true that this article could have been more “web standards specialists compliant”, I think we have to keep in mind that it was not written for the people who are conviced about web standards but for people who are not.
So, my conclusion would be: “even if you can create the most usuable website, one issue will always remain: to communicate efficiently to your readers”... (and this was consclusion was not writtent for Veerle but for people who write comment too fast ;-)
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@Pilok, your insight is correct. This article was indeed just a first step to get familiar with the concepts of web standards. Being overly technical in the very first introduction could have scared people off. So those already familiar were probably expecting a more in depth article, maybe some new stuff to learn etc. But that wasn’t the scope of the article. First walk and then run. Maybe next time who knows? :o)
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Folks, as I see it, what Veerle has accomplished in her print article is nothing but good “mojo”. I gets the discussion a flow going with regards to Web standards. And by the various re-actions to the article Veerle has met the objective. Wether the article is prefect or definitive is missing the point. Getting the word and starting the flow of the Conversation is the good positive result to take from it. Thanks Veerle.